tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15860677.post7234532503884173725..comments2024-03-25T14:27:40.121-05:00Comments on Heart, Mind, Soul, and Strength: Does Rome "Add to Jesus"?Weekend Fisherhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10425001168670801073noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15860677.post-5305948096710525162007-08-25T19:55:00.000-05:002007-08-25T19:55:00.000-05:00Hi thereI think the only thing I'm going to respon...Hi there<BR/><BR/>I think the only thing I'm going to respond to in the comments section here so far (as opposed to in a separate post) is Kelly's comment. <BR/><BR/>I definitely belong to the Lutheran church because it is, as far as I can tell, the closest to the original teachings as received. In places where Lutherans differ from Roman Catholics (salvation by grace through faith without meriting eternal life, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist does not replace the bread and wine but joins with them, etc.) I'd be glad to support the Lutheran stand over the Roman Catholic stand based on Scripture and patristics. Not that that's the point of this post, but just saying as a matter of principle, y'know. <BR/><BR/>The reason I speak of righting Rome from without is because she has cut herself off from being righted from withint. She considers herself doctrinally infallible (it's one of several things she's wrong about), and she excommunicates anyone who disagrees openly with her on all kinds of things, not only the things she's right about but also the the things she's wrong about. <BR/><BR/>She's cut herself off from correction by developing a theology about how she could never need correction on that level. <BR/><BR/>I appreciate that you took the time to post, and I hate that our first exchange is over something that we're bound to disagree deeply about. You seem a decent person that I'd be glad to know. <BR/><BR/>Take care & God bless<BR/>Anne / WFWeekend Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10425001168670801073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15860677.post-57082617557403102462007-08-25T12:17:00.000-05:002007-08-25T12:17:00.000-05:00...incidentally, the way that the spacing goes squ......incidentally, the way that the spacing goes squished after quotes can be cured, e.g. if you insert after the quote (doing so under "edit HTML" rather than "compose" of course) something like this:<BR/>[less-than bracket]span style="line-height:1.6"[more-than bracket]<BR/>...where ]less-than bracket] = <, and similarly for >...<BR/>...adding another /span (inside those pointy brackets of course) at the end of the post, then that works. A more long-term solution (apparently, although I prefer short-term stuff that I can see working) is given <A HREF="http://medjournalwatch.blogspot.com/2007/07/blogger-line-height-bug-fix.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>. (If you didn't understand any of that, let me know and I'll describe it differently:)Martin Cookehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11425491938517935179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15860677.post-61272823764843248192007-08-24T21:22:00.000-05:002007-08-24T21:22:00.000-05:00Anastasia, I'd prefer if comments to my responses ...<B>Anastasia</B>, I'd prefer if comments to my responses were on my blog articles, simply because I don't expect to look for them here. I will be copying your comment and my response to my own blog (unless you object).<BR/><BR/>As for your comments... <I>between "feed My sheep" and the papacy as we know it is a HUGE gap. "Feed My sheep" does not imply being THE only shepherd, or even the chief shepherd, or bring the principle of unity in the church...</I><BR/><BR/>Jesus gives Peter three different commands in John 21:15-17: "feed my lambs", "tend my sheep", and "feed my sheep". I refer to the Greek: "βοσκε τα αρνια μου", "ποιμαινε τα προβατα μου", and "βοσκε τα προβατα μου". There are two different verbs used by John ("bosko" and "poimaino"): the first means "to pasture; to feed; to keep" whereas the second one means "to tend as a shepherd; to rule". And there are two different nouns used, "arnion" and "probaton": the first means "lamb", the second means "sheep(fold)".<BR/><BR/>This part of the gospel according to John is just as inspired as the rest, and thus these words were used under the direction of the Holy Spirit, so they accurately reflect what Jesus told Peter.<BR/><BR/>The Catholic Church recognizes these three commands to its Bishops thus: to teach, to govern, and to sanctify. For the "lambs" who are young in their faith, to instruct them and build up their faith. For the "sheep" -- the entire flock under their care -- to govern them and ensure they adhere to the whole faith. And this flock must be built up and continually fed by the Word and the Word made flesh.<BR/><BR/>Now, if there are multiple Peters -- that is, multiple shepherds of the same "rank" as Peter -- then it stands to reason they cannot give conflicting instruction, or else Jesus is setting his Church up for failure. But Jesus gave these commands to Peter alone as Scripture reports it, and he himself said there would be ONE flock and ONE shepherd. Now, Jesus is the chief Shepherd, whereas Peter is the vicar shepherd who governs until Jesus returns in glory.<BR/><BR/>Just as Jesus delegated unto Peter it seems reasonable that Peter can delegate LOCAL responsibility to individual Bishops, but Peter would maintain his role of shepherd of the entire flock. That is the key here: Jesus did not give Peter a portion of the flock, he gave Peter the whole flock. That is what was imaged in the catch of fish that day.Jeffrey Pinyanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08758581112217835988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15860677.post-50064917625427558602007-08-24T16:21:00.000-05:002007-08-24T16:21:00.000-05:00Sorry, Jeff, but between "feed My sheep" and the p...Sorry, Jeff, but between "feed My sheep" and the papacy as we know it is a HUGE gap. "Feed My sheep" does not imply being THE only shepherd, or even the chief shepherd, or bing the principle of unity in the church, or having two swords, or that subjection to Peter is necessary for salvation, or subjection to his alleged successors, or ANY of that stuff. It's way, way too big a stretch, requires too much imagination.<BR/><BR/>AnastasiaAnastasia Theodoridishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16092531121989260111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15860677.post-68935086731942123122007-08-23T22:20:00.000-05:002007-08-23T22:20:00.000-05:00I've treated Unam Sanctam here.I've treated <I>Unam Sanctam</I> <A HREF="http://thecrossreference.blogspot.com/2007/08/diablog-subject-to-christ-or-to-pope.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>.Jeffrey Pinyanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08758581112217835988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15860677.post-82068973036433123192007-08-23T17:36:00.000-05:002007-08-23T17:36:00.000-05:00Ok, here is the first part of my response (dealing...Ok, <A HREF="http://thecrossreference.blogspot.com/2007/08/dialogue-trent-on-merits-of-good-works.html" REL="nofollow">here</A> is the first part of my response (dealing with the Council of Trent).<BR/><BR/>I'll get around to the necessity of subjection to the Roman Pontiff after dinner, perhaps.Jeffrey Pinyanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08758581112217835988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15860677.post-33087758371219406852007-08-23T15:46:00.000-05:002007-08-23T15:46:00.000-05:00I was writing a very lengthy response, but I've de...I was writing a very lengthy response, but I've decided to make it a blog post. It should be up before long.<BR/><BR/>This <I>diablog</I> could get interesting.Jeffrey Pinyanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08758581112217835988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15860677.post-85951486381258994982007-08-23T14:20:00.000-05:002007-08-23T14:20:00.000-05:00Hello!I've never left a comment before, but someth...Hello!<BR/><BR/>I've never left a comment before, but something you said got me thinking--<BR/><BR/>"The only way to help the church be what it should be is from without, because Protest on that level is not allowed from within."<BR/><BR/>I'm curious about this comment in a few ways, and I'd like to discuss it more in depth with you.<BR/><BR/>First, I must say i don't like the idea of leaving a church in order to make it better. The reason I'm a member of the RC church is because I do believe it is closest to God's plan of all the others--if I didn't I'd have to leave. But in no certain terms do i think it's perfect--in fact, I like the way you talked about it being ~80% right. But how can I (or anyone) help the church gain that last 20% by joining a church that is <80%? <BR/><BR/>People belong to a certain church (I think/hope?) because they believe it is the church closest to the way God wants us to be. If you think your church is more correct, and you are trying to "fix" my church, what that means to me is you are trying to make my church more like your church--perhaps even to the point at which point it ceases to be my church. (Note: "my" and "your" in this case happen to be Catholic and Lutheran, but they don't have to be. I think this is something someone of any denomination would be afraid of.)<BR/><BR/>To me, the only way to "fix" the church is from inside--by people who know it for what it is and love it for what it should be. I'm aware this undermines the whole idea of the Protest, and I really don't mean at all to be rude or insulting, but I did want to weigh in with my two cents.KDBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04708997761413346703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15860677.post-76287641113287961882007-08-23T04:19:00.000-05:002007-08-23T04:19:00.000-05:00...and the probability that the convert had overlo......and the probability that the convert had overlooked enough data to make his estimate worthless is also in the upper 80s. Incidentally I've tagged you <A HREF="http://enigmanically.blogspot.com/2007/08/pseudorandom-facts-ii-and-iii.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>...Martin Cookehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11425491938517935179noreply@blogger.com