tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15860677.post7593915044561367119..comments2024-03-25T14:27:40.121-05:00Comments on Heart, Mind, Soul, and Strength: Righteous by faith: imputation and God's righteousnessWeekend Fisherhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10425001168670801073noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15860677.post-33215292728457515562008-12-20T10:46:00.000-06:002008-12-20T10:46:00.000-06:00Great thread, why is it a year old?As a "commoner"...Great thread, why is it a year old?<BR/><BR/>As a "commoner" in theological study, may I make two small points?<BR/><BR/>1. If you consider sin as "separateness" or "separation" from God (its there as one of the nuances in the greek), and read "righteous" or "righteousness" as "as you ought to be" (also an available nuance) then "righteous by faith" equates to "... 'as you ought to be' by faith" as opposed to your not "being as you ought to be" in sin.<BR/><BR/>If this is a valid construct then God "imputes" to you the condition of being "as you ought to be" when you surrender your self in faith". Which brings me to point 2:<BR/><BR/>2. "Faith without works is dead" - or - "faith without resulting actions motivated by that faith does not exist" means that faith includes two components: belief - which even the devils have, and an action taken in risk because of that belief.<BR/><BR/>My personal definition of "faith" is "a risky action taken based on a belief developed by a trust from prior experience with that action" ( I, in faith, take the risky action of driving my car based on trusting the experience of having arrived safely at my destination in the past). We are told God "wooes" us long before we know who He is or accept Him. I believe when we come to the conscious acceptance of - and surrender to - Him it is a risk-filled action taken based on prior contact with Him - self-acknowledged or not.<BR/><BR/>So, I would offer that God "treats us as if we are as we ought to be with Him when we take the risk-filled action of surrendering to Him".K.R. Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06921603729387937687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15860677.post-88184356295549513252007-11-22T19:59:00.000-06:002007-11-22T19:59:00.000-06:00Good post. I learned something. :)Good post. I learned something. :)Annettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07731853888897956775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15860677.post-36678409813645413912007-11-21T07:58:00.000-06:002007-11-21T07:58:00.000-06:00Thank you, Anne. I suppose the distinction I am tr...Thank you, Anne. I suppose the distinction I am trying to make is between criminal and civil law. Debts etc are a matter of civil law, and it is just to set free an imprisoned debtor by paying the debt. But many people describe sin as if it is a matter of criminal law - but it is unjust and corrupt to set free an imprisoned criminal by paying cash. But then I wonder, how far is this distinction between civil and criminal law a modern one? I don't know.<BR/><BR/>I would agree with you that "the means to live a debt-free life in the future" is "trusting God and the life built on that trust". Also "righteousness before God is acknowledging *his* righteousness, i.e., is faith" is a good way of expressing this.Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15860677.post-27423609319936205522007-11-21T07:40:00.000-06:002007-11-21T07:40:00.000-06:00Hi thereThanks for stopping by. I think, in Scrip...Hi there<BR/><BR/>Thanks for stopping by. <BR/><BR/>I think, in Scripture, the line between legal and accounting language is not absolute. In some of the teachings where debt is a stand-in for sin, we see the debt as the basis of a legal consequence such as imprisonment (e.g. Matt 18:34). With our modern legal landscape no one is put in prison or sold into slavery for debt, but those have been commonplaces in human history; accounting debt was a form of criminal liability. I think that's why Paul so easily transitions from what we see as legal language to what we see as accounting language. <BR/><BR/>I expect we have some differences behind your phrase "the means to live a debt-free life in the future". By that I would mean trusting God and the life built on that trust. <BR/><BR/>At any rate, my point was that when we are "accounted righteous," it is not merely on the basis of a debtor's analogy either. While I agree with the "accounting of grace" erasing our debts, there is still the righteousness of faith. I.e. it is not merely a book entry which corresponds to nothing other than the removal of the debt on the books. It also is an accurate accounting of the new state of the real world, where righteousness before God is acknowledging *his* righteousness, i.e., is faith. This may be a debtor's righteousness, but as creatures there never was any other kind available to us. <BR/><BR/>Take care & God bless<BR/>Anne / WFWeekend Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10425001168670801073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15860677.post-5897314113668153832007-11-21T07:21:00.000-06:002007-11-21T07:21:00.000-06:00Thanks for your discussion of my point about legal...Thanks for your discussion of my point about legal fiction.<BR/><BR/>In response I would say that there is a confusion here between two rather different images of the result of sin. The image which I was working with, because that is the favoured image of the people I was responding to, is that of the law court. This seems to be the image Paul is using in Romans 3:21-26, although maybe that is debatable. On this image, someone who commits a sin is guilty in law and deserves punishment. If they are not punished, and if someone else is punished in their place, that is either an injustice or a legal fiction.<BR/><BR/>But in Romans 4, specifically in verse 4, Paul shifts to the image of a financial account, and it is this image you are working with. On this image, the result of a sin is a debt, which must be paid. This is also the image Jesus used in the Lord's Prayer, Matthew 6:12, where the sins are literally debts; similarly in several of his parables where debts symbolise sin. And on this image it is quite possible for one Person to pay the debts of others; this is not a legal fiction but proper accounting for a free gift, grace.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps the implication of this is that we should describe the atonement less with legal imagery but more in accounting terms. But we need to remember that both are imperfect images or models of the underlying spiritual truth.<BR/><BR/>But a responsible human benefactor will not pay off someone's debts and then allow them to continue to go into debt while continuing to pay off those debts. Instead the benefactor will find ways for the former debtor to live within their means, to avoid going into debt again. Similarly God in Jesus pays off our debts of sin, and also provides the means for us to live a debt-free life in future - while recognising that we will not be able to do so perfectly and may need help again.Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15860677.post-85534813710456908612007-11-19T09:32:00.000-06:002007-11-19T09:32:00.000-06:00Just to let you know, Anne, I've referenced this p...Just to let you know, Anne, I've referenced this post (and quoted briefly from it) on my blog.http://anastasias-corner.blogspot.com/<BR/><BR/>No, I'm not sure I know what you mean by having your own JW blog watcher now!<BR/><BR/>AnastasiaAnastasia Theodoridishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16092531121989260111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15860677.post-64309142202256217112007-11-19T07:25:00.000-06:002007-11-19T07:25:00.000-06:00About asking the right questions -- yah, don't eve...About asking the right questions -- yah, don't even get me started on the Calvinist/Arminian debate. They're very fond of telling me that Calvinism and Arminianism are the only two answers to that particular question. But "Have you stopped beating your wife?" likewise only has two answers; it's just that's not enough to make it a good question. <BR/><BR/>I'll write about the JW's visit soon, I just wanted to put up something edifying between-times and not become "JW debate central." You may've noticed that I have my own personal JW blog-watcher now ... <BR/><BR/>Take care & God bless<BR/>WFWeekend Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10425001168670801073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15860677.post-48815299360410299462007-11-19T05:03:00.000-06:002007-11-19T05:03:00.000-06:00Sometimes people ask the wrong questions, ya know?...Sometimes people ask the wrong questions, ya know?<BR/><BR/>Like whether there can be any righteousness apart from God. The question could not even arise if one understood righteousness correctly -- as right relationship with God. You can't have that without God!<BR/><BR/>Or, if I am righteous, whose righteousness is it -- mine by imputation, or Christ's? Well, it's OURS, if righteousness is right *relationship with Him*. Put another way, insofar as I am united with Christ, the question makes no sense. (Obviously it was His originally; He is the only Source of it.)<BR/><BR/>Or, can there by any righteousness apart from faith? But "faith" is precisely the name we give to a right relationship with God; i.e., to righteousness, so again, it's like asking you can have a cat which isn't a cat. <BR/><BR/>Can there by faith without works? Not if faith is right relationship with God, not if faith is righteousness. "Be not deceived," the holy Apostle says, "He who DOES righteousness is righteous."<BR/><BR/>Can there be any such thing as "salvation" which saves us only from the *consequences* of our sins, but not from continuing to be sinners? Naw.<BR/><BR/>Anastasia<BR/><BR/>P.S. We're all waiting to hear how it went with the JWs!Anastasia Theodoridishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16092531121989260111noreply@blogger.com